Curse

Cebe · Jan 18, 2007, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Ok, so I found myself actually starting to enjoy playing as Ranger over the last few days. I took my ranger through Cantha before Nightfall came out just as something to do... Then I came to Elona and found the elite Strike as One. I came up with the following build:

[skill]Read the Wind[/skill][skill]Strike as One[/skill][skill]Heket's Rampage[/skill][skill]Predatory Bond[/skill][skill]Call of Protection[/skill][skill]Charm Animal[/skill][skill]Revive Animal[/skill][skill]Lively was Naomei[/skill]

I use a bow with 15%^Stance and a Vampiric String and seem to be hitting for 35-60 damage per hit. Is this good? I mean, I know there are no bow OR pet attacks on there, this is because Heket's Rampage ends when you use an attack skill... with enough in Beast Mastery I can keep Heket's Rampage up continuously.

I also capped Rampage as One recently...and sometimes replace Strike as One and Heket's Rampage with Rampage as One thus allowing me to take bow/pet attacks. As for pet attacks, I'm liking [wiki]Melandru's Assault[/wiki] in Elona. Good for Dervishes

Any thoughts on whether this is even vaguely good or how it could be improved? I don't play much as Ranger so I am less experienced in the ways of "Rangering".

Oh, the usual, for those out there who always come back with "Well that wouldn't work in PvP": NO it's NOT for PvP. I don't care if it wouldn't work in PvP. PvE ftw.

Silk Weaver · Jan 18, 2007, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Enraged Lunge.

If something doesn't work for PvP, the only reason it would work in PvE is becuase it abuses AI stupidity (ie. Meteor Shower), or because skills involved take advantage of the rests between battles, although too much of it can make it a slow game, and is therefore bad PvE as well, depending on the situation.

Your build doesn't deal enough damage. It has no "PvE vs PvP" in it, it's simply low on damage. Strike as one provides a -maximum- of 80 increased damage per 10 seconds (IF a pet attacks 5 times in 10 seconds which it cannot), whereas Enraged Lunge deals 80 per 5 seconds. You also have no IAS and Speed Buff for the pet (Call of Haste, Rampage as One), diminishing its damage potential by a lot, yes, especially in PvP, but also in PvE. Revive Animal is only good when teamed with other pet masters, but whatever, I can only assume that is the case.

Bows don't deal a lot of damage. End of discussion. Go and prove, through maths, that it deals more damage than conditions (apply poison, scremaing arrow, burning arrows), spears, spells, hammer, daggers, etc etc etc. If you cannot, then there's nothign to argue about there.

Cebe · Jan 18, 2007, 10:14 AM // 10:14

I used to use Enraged Lunge a lot in Factions which did deal about 80 damage but I liked the sound for Strike as One and wanted to try it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

If something doesn't work for PvP, the only reason it would work in PvE is becuase it abuses AI stupidity (ie. Meteor Shower), or because skills involved take advantage of the rests between battles, although too much of it can make it a slow game, and is therefore bad PvE as well, depending on the situation.

wtf? I only put that small piece of text at the bottom to try to stop people telling me about how my build would affect PvP because EVERY TIME ANYONE puts a build up in these forums 90% of the time the next post is someone pouncing on it telling them how it wouldn't work in PvP - it really gets to me, particularly when it happens to me, seeing as I hate PvP with a passion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

It has no "PvE vs PvP" in it,

Eh? Again...I don't want a PvE vs PvP debate...I was trying to make that point in my OP but evidently I didn't get the message across clearly enough...I must work on my wording...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Bows don't deal a lot of damage. End of discussion. Go and prove, through maths, that it deals more damage than conditions (apply poison, scremaing arrow, burning arrows), spears, spells, hammer, daggers, etc etc etc. If you cannot, then there's nothign to argue about there.

Now I'm not saying anything either way...but be careful what you say here. There are some people who insist Rangers deal more damage than Elementalists...

As for Daggers...ANYTHING deals more damage than daggers...Sins don't live long enough to use them!!

SO onto [wiki]Rampage as One[/wiki]...what's the GW community's feelings on this. With enough in Beast Mastery it covers itself although it is very expensive. It has a faster attack speed without the threat of coming off when you use an attack skill... Does anyone out there use this?

Amy Awien · Jan 18, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

The nice part about [wiki]Strike as One[/wiki] is that it does not require 3 other recharging BM skills like [wiki]Enraged Lunge[/wiki] and thus allows you to take some other, non-BM skills. SaO adds comparable damage, but only in 10 seconds against 5 (or 6) for EL.

IAS is more effective against low-armor targets, against better armor the armour ignoring damage bonusses from (most) attack skills become more important. For a high damage beastmaster an Enraged Lunge build is probably your best bet, it is very hard to beat those 80 bonus DP every 5~6 seconds.

Edit: I think [wiki]Comfort Animal[/wiki] is more usefull then [wiki]Revive Animal[/wiki] as it's range extends something of your compass range.

Jegred2 · Jan 18, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I used to use Enraged Lunge a lot in Factions which did deal about 80 damage but I liked the sound for Strike as One and wanted to try it out.

wtf? I only put that small piece of text at the bottom to try to stop people telling me about how my build would affect PvP because EVERY TIME ANYONE puts a build up in these forums 90% of the time the next post is someone pouncing on it telling them how it wouldn't work in PvP - it really gets to me, particularly when it happens to me, seeing as I hate PvP with a passion

Eh? Again...I don't want a PvE vs PvP debate...I was trying to make that point in my OP but evidently I didn't get the message across clearly enough...I must work on my wording...

Now I'm not saying anything either way...but be careful what you say here. There are some people who insist Rangers deal more damage than Elementalists...

As for Daggers...ANYTHING deals more damage than daggers...Sins don't live long enough to use them!!

SO onto [wiki]Rampage as One[/wiki]...what's the GW community's feelings on this. With enough in Beast Mastery it covers itself although it is very expensive. It has a faster attack speed without the threat of coming off when you use an attack skill... Does anyone out there use this?

lol, all pvp thumpers use RaO, don't know about pve though.

BTW, sins arguable have one of the highest DPS out there, in a couple secs they can tele in hit you for a crap load of dmg, poison, bleeding, and deep wound. But I've found they aren't very fun to play in pve.

If your big on pve I would say that making 3 rangers with pets, like BP's out of yourself and the 2 heroes and having one hero carry revive animal would leave a skill slot open for yourself and one hero.

Sir Mad · Jan 18, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I think [wiki]Comfort Animal[/wiki] is more usefull then [wiki]Revive Animal[/wiki] as it's range extends something of your compass range.

I used both and for me the main advantages of Comfort over Revive is the short casting and recharge time. Unless it has been changed since the last time I played with revive, 20 secs recharge is a very long time time when you partially or totally relay on your pet to tank in higher areas. And when it happens (when you have to count on your pet for that), the spammable (at least from the point of view of its recharge time - it still costs a lot of energy when spammed) healing from Comfort is much appreciated. Especially with Call of Protection (and eventually Symbiotic Bond), keeping him alive with Charm is easy enough (with 16 BM, and provided you're not trying that in DoA

).

Revive remains a nice skill and can be handy in a BM team (pets are rezzed with 100% health), yet I think even in this case Charm is required for the cases like the one quoted above. However, it would do the job in a B/P team if you're sure your MM won't leave/get DCed.

EDIT /

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

As for Daggers...ANYTHING deals more damage than daggers...Sins don't live long enough to use them!!

That one made me LMAO

Chamber Asgardian · Jan 20, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

As for Daggers...ANYTHING deals more damage than daggers...Sins don't live long enough to use them!!

Don't trash a class just because you suck *** at using it. Sins and Mesmers are one of the only two classes that truly reflect your skills as a player. Meaning if you suck it shows, and if you good it shows.

ubermancer · Jan 20, 2007, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chamber Asgardian

Don't trash a class just because you suck *** at using it. Sins and Mesmers are classes that truly reflect your skills as a player. Meaning if you suck it shows, and if you good it shows.

Fixed that for you.

Sir Mad · Jan 20, 2007, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chamber Asgardian

Don't trash a class just because you suck *** at using it. Sins and Mesmers are one of the only two classes that truly reflect your skills as a player. Meaning if you suck it shows, and if you good it shows.

Chill mate, that was a joke. I like my sin, yet it made me laugh. And I remember I played a long time ago with Celestial Beaver to get some masters in Factions, and he (she?) is anything but a bad player, really.

jesh · Jan 21, 2007, 07:14 AM // 07:14

I'm pretty sure there's only 1 build an elementalist can play that can out damage a good ranger, and that's... *drumroll* Searing Flames!

If you want the most damage out of your ranger, you need an IAS *and* attack skills. You don't chose one or the other, like choosing between Flare and Ice Popsicle.

As for your BM build.. I wouldn't use it, so I can't offer to much advice. Ferocious Strike is the elite of my choice for a BM build, simply because it allows you to sustain your pet attacks, which get quite expensive. It's also a free source of damage. Melandru's is ok, but I suggest reading through the beast mastery guide on the main page of the website for attack skills of choice.

::EDIT::
You didn't post attributes either. This looks more like a hybrid ranger to me than a beast master. With a hybrid ranger, most people will go for 12 in marksman and in BM, spreading the leftovers out. You get 2x the damage of normal characters, but your disadvantage is the terrible pet AI. Switching targets is often painful, and your pet has to run from one target to the next. He can also be body blocked by mobs or obstacles and do nothing.
"Beast Master" to me means 16 BM and you use a staff.

Amy Awien · Jan 21, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Pet-attacks are actually fairly cheap, 5E mostly, and that should just be possible once in every 2 second attack-cycle.

II Mr Sinister II · Jan 24, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Sorry for the size of the pic i was using this for another topic, this is the beast build im using, it works so well i got my hero's to charm hyena's with same build but each with 'disruption maul or beasteal pounce' while i use Poison bite. 3 ranger/pets in my team build works pretty good too. (only use with my ranger).

One thing i noticed with 'Heal as One' Elite on my ranger hero's is they dont res thier pets, evan after the battles finished. i think as there own health is 100% they've no need to use it so i have to activate the skill for them. i hope its just an oversight & gets fixed soon as but otherwise its cool as.

R/Mo (fyi Meding touch is the monk skill, removes 2 cooond with heal buff) the builds not rocket science so no need to detail this build, just max out beast Mastery then Marks / Expert. Play around with the beast attack skills ie: Beast pounce/Dis'pt Maul/poisonous bite etc theres plenty of good beast attacks to choose from.

This leaves you with one damage dealer, one interupt and a high speed prep. i swap the prep for Lightbringer gaze in Torment areas.

jesh · Jan 24, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Pet-attacks are actually fairly cheap, 5E mostly, and that should just be possible once in every 2 second attack-cycle.

(taken from the guide written by Jenosavel and Epinephrine on the home page)

Bestial Pounce: Energy burden = ~1 pip
Brutal Strike: Energy burden = 5 pips
Disrupting Lunge: Energy burden = 2.5 pips
Feral Lunge: Energy burden = ~1.5 pips
Maiming Strike: Energy burden = ~3 pips
Melandru's Assault: Energy burden = ~3 pips
Predator's Pounce: Energy burden = 2.5 pips
Scavenger Strike: Energy burden = 5 pips

Chose any 3 pet attacks, and you're looking at *at least* an energy burden of 5 pips, without counting the other skills that all cost energy on your bar.
Costs are listed without expertise, but you're starting to spread attributes thin if you're trying to hit 13 expertise and keep 12 BM + marksmanship.
.4*5=2 pips of regen. That's the very least you should be spending on pet attacks.
Taking Brutal Strike, Scavenger Strike and Feral puts your burden up to 11.5! 11.5*.4= 4.6 pips or energy, which is more than you have as a ranger. These are also, coincidentally, the best 3 pet attack skills there are.
If you want more than those 3 attacks, your energy burden will be even higher. As I stated before, you also have more than 3 attack skills on your bar as a BM, so your energy burden will actually be higher than this.

:EDIT: 10 energy BM skills will actually raise the energy costs more, as 13 expertise doesn't reduce the cost to 40%.

TwinRaven · Jan 24, 2007, 11:43 PM // 23:43

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For a R/Mo, this is my general setup....Sup BM on a mask and minors on the rest (usually keep 4 masks with Sups to swap builds). Make a text file and copy that into your templates folder (saves setting up time). Should look like this:

BM: 14
E: 10
WS: 10
M: 9

Troll Ungent
Call of Protection
Call of Haste
Predator's Pounce
Enraged Lunge
Comfort Animal
Charm Animal
Rezzy Siggy/Rebirth (situational)

Depending on what I'm doing, I'll switch to Disrupting Lunge or Poisonous Bite and drop the Rez (fighting in Fort Aspenwood/running all heroes and henchies where I can make them use their rez).

Timing the spamming of the attack skills for maximum damage takes a bit of practice. People will criticize this build becasue it uses Wilderness Survival for a self-heal and has points in Marksmanship...but it has to do with my comfort zone and not liking the idea of being 100% reliant on the beast. Such as:

BM: 16
E: 13

leftover 6 (where-ever, usually Marksmanship or staff-specific)

Symbiotic Bond
Predatory Bond
Call of Protection
Call of Haste
Enraged Lunge
Comfort Animal
Charm Animal
Rezzy Siggy/Rebirth (situational)

You have 21 seconds of healing +33 every 2 seconds or so - assuming your pet hits...if your pet dies, you are without healing until it's up and running. You have better damage potential with Enraged Lunge (maxing out more often), but lack the additional damage of another attack skill and no bow damage as your bow/staff are for pointing out the targets. Your pet, however, has just become one tough hombre! +3 regen, 1/2 damage directed to you(healed +33 for each hit for 21 of every 30 seconds if your pet is hitting), and a +20 damage reduction...purists use a variation of this build with decent effect...I prefer a middle-ground approach.

As for the "...as One" skills, they seem more attuned to Thumper builds and the like. I have tinkered with them and read through forums, and just can't see them increasing survivability without sacrificing damage...or vice versa.

Good luck and happy hunting.

Amy Awien · Jan 25, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Chose any 3 pet attacks, and you're looking at *at least* an energy burden of 5 pips, without counting the other skills that all cost energy on your bar. Costs are listed without expertise ...

...

Taking Brutal Strike, Scavenger Strike and Feral puts your burden up to 11.5! 11.5*.4= 4.6 pips or energy, which is more than you have as a ranger. These are also, coincidentally, the best 3 pet attack skills there are.

Firstly, you can not just give some energy burden without factoring in expertise and expect any sort of accuracy. It is not hard to get three attribute lines (Beastmastery, Expertise and Marksmanship) at between 12 and 14 with runes and thus have decent energy management combined with high damage output.
Secondly, the data you cite only factors in the skills recycle (recharge) time and calculates the energyburden based on the assumption that a skill is used whenever it is charged. But if you push the skill's buttons as soon as they are recharges you are playing very foolishly, since you should be timing in sync with with the petattacks. More attack skills wil not increase your energy burden!

With 13 expertise a 5 energy skill costs 2, use one of those every 2.1 seconds and you should use just little under 1 energy/second. That is well below your regen.

Stating that beastmasters are quickly short on energy is very much besides the truth and giving an example of poor skill selection will not make it true.

Brutal Strike and Scavenger's Strike are poor choices, Feral Lunge is acceptable. Brutal Strike is twice as expensive as Predator's Pounce, which does the same amount of damage and adds some healing. You only get the extra damage for BS only when the target is low on health. Scavenger's Strike will do a bit more damage, but only if the target has a condition, at double the energy price.

You completely overlook far better choices, such as Enraged Lunge - which deals +80 damage for 5 energy - and Predator's Pounce.

Evilsod · Jan 25, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Beast Mastery revolves around Enranged Lunge whether you like it or not. If your aiming to be a pure Beastmaster Strike As One isn't too effective. If your running a hybrid Beastmaster... Strike As One could be used but Enraged Lunge will still do more.

You can run a fully functional Enraged Lunge build with 2 interrupts and ~10 in Marksmanship. Just make sure your frigging pet is Dire. The only thing anyone uses a pet for is either damage or dieing. Dire wins in both those.

Running 16BM 13Exp with either Enraged Lunge, Disrupting Lunge, Distracting Shot, Brutal Strike, Call of Haste, Call of Prot, Comfort Animal, Charm Animal.

Or drop Distracting, use a staff and bring a Res. +80 for 2e and +74 for 4e with the occasional other 2e skill you can run with 38 energy (+5e bow) or 53energy (+20e staff) for quite a while... fights shouldn't take THAT long... and if they do, just calm it on the Brutal spam.

Works even better with 2 Heros running it too

lennymon · Jan 25, 2007, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Just make sure your frigging pet is Dire. The only thing anyone uses a pet for is either damage or dieing. Dire wins in both those.

OK, now you are just being an Evilsod!!!! ;P truth, but why does it need to hurt?

jesh · Jan 25, 2007, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Firstly, you can not just give some energy burden without factoring in expertise and expect any sort of accuracy. It is not hard to get three attribute lines (Beastmastery, Expertise and Marksmanship) at between 12 and 14 with runes and thus have decent energy management combined with high damage output.

Reading comprehension. I did that in my last post. If you want points in wilderness or a secondary attribute, you will have none.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Secondly, the data you cite only factors in the skills recycle (recharge) time and calculates the energyburden based on the assumption that a skill is used whenever it is charged. But if you push the skill's buttons as soon as they are recharges you are playing very foolishly, since you should be timing in sync with with the petattacks. More attack skills wil not increase your energy burden!

More attack skills will, as the recharge isn't 2 on any pet attack. You also have other skills like IAS, other stances, pet calls, self preservation, etc. These all add to your energy burden.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

With 13 expertise a 5 energy skill costs 2, use one of those every 2.1 seconds and you should use just little under 1 energy/second. That is well below your regen.

Not counting elites, there aren't many 5 energy pet attacks worth using.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Brutal Strike and S..................y price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

You completely overlo.............ounce.

I wasn't counting elite attacks. As for your other skill choices, read the pet guide. *digs for a thread for you to read*

:EDIT:
Here's the thread.
The OP was having problems keeping up with energy costs even with 14 expertise.
Here's the pet guide.

Evilsod, wouldn't Savage Shot be better for PvE usage? Er... are you trying to use it to fuel Enraged? Also, Call of Haste? I can understand using it for Enraged, but it does increase the amount of time between pet attack skills, theoretically lowering your DPS. Have you seen that effect in your experience?
Lennymon, I think it's cuz all of us inside love those big dorky Hearty Moas.

Amy Awien · Jan 25, 2007, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

More attack skills will, as the recharge isn't 2 on any pet attack.

You can not add the bare numbers because of pet attack frequency - the energy-numbers assume skills are used when recharged, which is not in sync with the pet's attacks. Just adding petattacks doesn't increase the energy burden, using them inefficently will.

There is no point in using petattacks more frequently then your pet attacks, which is exactly what you do when you blindly add energyburdens.

Quote:

You also have other skills like IAS, other stances, pet calls, self preservation, etc. These all add to your energy burden.

An IAS-ed pet would enable you to use skills more frequently and that could increase the energyburden beyond what can be maintained. An IAS like TF for your bow is expensive compared to what it gains in damage and utility skills are used infrequently, if you can bring them at all.

Quote:

Not counting elites, there aren't many 5 energy pet attacks worth using.

If you think you have to bring more expensive skills, that is your choice. Even Predator's Pounce is a better choice then Brutal Strike, in my opinion.

[quote]I wasn't counting elite attacks. As for your other skill choices, read the pet guide.[quote]

Why no elite attacks? But please elaborate on why you think why my choices aren't good, refering to the guide says nothing. The guide, btw, is outdated where the skills are concerned.

Quote:

Here's the thread.
The OP was having problems keeping up with energy costs even with 14 expertise.

His energy problems are likely due to Brutal Strike, it's expensive and the extra damage when the target <50% health will rarely occur to make it worthwhile.

lennymon · Jan 25, 2007, 05:30 PM // 17:30

I almost invariably (in an enraged build) use just enraged and predators pounce for attack skills, both calls (CoH & CoP), predatory bond for healing me and the pets basics. The energy problems there are call of haste and predatory bond because you'll instinctively want to use them whenever they recharge for more enraged damage while still spamming both attacks. I think its usually better to fall back on just enraged in more protracted (read monk or restorit bosses) fights instead of not having enough energy to use one of the 3 utility skills. This is even with just 2 5e attacks, so it's not always less energy hoggish(?I know its not a real word) to just have 2 5e attacks.
My recommendation for the OPs build with the least negative effect on damage output would be go the RaO route, predatory bond shines with pet ias. I'd also definitely swap out revive for comfort as your damage drops significantly if your pet dies, so going RaO perhaps at least consider using predators pounce. Revive wont heal your pet in a fight either, and despite how good call of prot is now it wont stop degen, and once that pet drops you've just been effectively removed from the fight with no degen/interrupts/attack skills/or elite straddled with a 6 sec cast time res likely right in the middle of melee.